WEBVTT
Kind: captions
Language: en

1
00:00:03.760 --> 00:00:06.000
This is the Technical Difficulties,
we're playing Citation Needed.

2
00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:07.440
Joining me today, he reads books y'know,

3
00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:08.680
-it's Chris Joel.
-In space.

4
00:00:10.080 --> 00:00:11.800
Everybody's favourite Gary Brannan,
Gary Brannan.

5
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Nice to see you, to see you...

6
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Nice!

7
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And the bounciest man on the internet,
Matt Gray.

8
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-You planned that?
-Yeah.

9
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I planned nothing.

10
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In front of me I've got an article from
Wikipedia and these folks can't see it.

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Every fact they get right is a point
and a ding,

12
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and there's a special prize for
particularly good answers, which is...

13
00:00:35.320 --> 00:00:38.760
And today we are talking about
Juan Pujol Garcia.

14
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Juan Pujol, is there are two of them,
is he on his own?

15
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It's a good job this isn't QI, Gary,

16
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because at that part large klaxons would be
going off with that joke.

17
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Just saying t*** repeatedly.

18
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Can I guess that this person is from a
Spanish or Portuguese speaking country?

19
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Er, yeah, Spain.

20
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-Hey!
-I don't know very much about Spain.

21
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It's funny you say
that you don't know much about Spain.

22
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Did he neither?

23
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He didn't know much about England and that
became important during part of his life.

24
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Did he just end up here and was like
'S***, what's this?'

25
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Well, I'm going to have a run at this one
and miss it,

26
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but was he some kind of captain
of the Spanish Armada?

27
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Ooh, no,
you're far, far, far too early for that.

28
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Was he not the captain of any kind of
Spanish Armada?

29
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Yes, but you're not getting a point
for not saying he's not something.

30
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Was he not the first man
to walk on the moon, is true.

31
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If he was too early for an armada
he's going to be too early for the moon.

32
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No, he's too … he's too late for an armada.

33
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-Too late for an armada.
-The armada was too early for him?

34
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-Yes. The armada left, he hadn't been born yet.
-He missed the bus.

35
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It was centuries, it is centuries later.

36
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"Did I miss the train
or did the train miss me?" he cries.

37
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Yeah, he was centuries late for the armada,
he was born in 1912, died in 1988.

38
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Aha, that doesn't help much.

39
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It doesn’t, but he had a code name.

40
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-Did he now?
-Given those dates,

41
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why might you want a code name?

42
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-Spies.
-Yes.

43
00:01:52.080 --> 00:01:53.680
-Is this to do with the government of Fran...?
-Oh!

44
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Was he a spy placed in England but
he just didn't know anything about the place?

45
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So was he s*** spy?

46
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No, he was a spy placed in England to look
after sheep and therefore:

47
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was a shepherd-spy!

48
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[Subtitler's note: Gary's joke is a pun on "shepherd's pie",
but for the first time in the show's history,
this pun is entirely untranslatable to text.]

49
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That's not olden, that's golden.

50
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Two people in the audience just going,
"No. No, we're not rewarding that."

51
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No, he was … he was an excellent spy,
but for which side?

52
00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:31.680
And we're talking World War 2 here.

53
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-Both.
-Yes, absolutely right, he was a double agent.

54
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Is he involved
in the 'man who never was' thing?

55
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No, this was not Operation Mincemeat.

56
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-Right.
-This was not that.

57
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Because there was someone in that who was
sending information both ways, wasn't there?

58
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This was … this was a man who received
both an Iron Cross from Germany

59
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and an MBE from Britain.

60
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How can that make him a good spy?
Surely that makes him a s*** spy.

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Only for one of those sides.

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♪ Dun dun dun! ♪

63
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So during the early days of World War 2

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he decided he had to make a contribution for
the good of humanity.

65
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And he went to the British who said…

66
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Alright.

67
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Nah.

68
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Have a point, Gary.

69
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Sorry, British. "...No."

70
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Three different times they turned him down
as a spy, so what did he do instead?

71
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Oh, did he just go in and start feeding us
information without …

72
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without us asking him to?

73
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"That was dreadfully rude of him
but jolly useful."

74
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He's only helped the British without asking,
but not by talking to them.

75
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-Oh, did he talk…
-I was…

76
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-Chris.
-Guz... ah...

77
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Posed as a British spy and fed false
information to the Germans.

78
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Spot on, absolutely right, he …

79
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he created an identity as a fanatically
pro-Nazi Spanish government official,

80
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who could travel to London on business

81
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and he just started
sending false reports to the Germans.

82
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"Hello, I'm a fanatical Nazi. (I'm not.)"

83
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Which meant everyone thought he was a spy...

84
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but he just wasn't.

85
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Yes, have a point.

86
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So the Germans accepted him and said,
"Okay, you're a spy now."

87
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They gave him equipment, they gave him a bit
of money and he moved to Lisbon in Portugal.

88
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Can he see the coast, can he see what ships
are going round Portugal?

89
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Look at England from afar!

90
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"I'd go over there to spy directly
but the weather, really."

91
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His instructions were move to Britain
and recruit a network of British agents.

92
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Did he pretend he was in Britain
when he was actually in Portugal?

262
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Yes.

94
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-Clever bastard.
-He's a really good spy,

95
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He's such a good spy that he isn't a spy
and everyone thought he was a spy.

96
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And then he told them that he was spying
and he wasn't doing the spying.

97
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How is he actually sending a report to them?
Because he is sending reports in.

98
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Is he sending them to London who will then
direct it via London or something,

99
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so they're coming from the right route?

100
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He's just throwing them over the wall
and running away?

101
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No, he's staying in Lisbon for this.

102
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Pretending?

262
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Yes.

104
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Did he just lie?

105
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What might he have used
as a basis for that?

106
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Because remember, he's just sitting in Lisbon
sending completely false reports about Britain.

107
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Was he listening to British radio?

108
00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:05.720
Erm, newsreel reports in cinemas.

109
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But, yeah, he's looking at the news,
and using a tourist guide to Britain.

110
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Which, correct me if I'm wrong:
the Nazis could watch the news as well?

111
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Yes. But they still believed him.

112
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Because they saw it on the news, they thought
that what he was saying was correct,

113
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because he'd seen it on the news.

114
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He was confirming the British propaganda

115
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but by…

116
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But he was, if he's dressed up as a spy saying,
"Yes, I know these things."

117
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And then the news says those things because
he's already seen the news and they think he's…

118
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Yeah, he's right.

119
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Yes, you're absolutely right,
that's pretty much what happened.

120
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There was one slight problem, and he's putting
expense reports in, by the way here.

121
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-He's getting reimbursed for this.
-He's living the dream now, now I'm with him.

122
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What's the slight problem
with his expense report?

123
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Oh, was Portuguese currency decimals,
so he couldn't forge the receipts?

262
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Yes.

125
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Because it's really hard to convert
decimal to an imperial currency system

126
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because it's pegged completely differently.

127
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Yeah, more than that, he didn't know
how pounds, shillings and pence worked.

128
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Because he'd never been there.

129
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Yes, so he's making mistakes
but the reports are still credible,

130
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so credible that what happens?

131
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Do we spend a lot of time trying to find him
and couldn't because he's in Lisbon?

132
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MI5 launched a full scale spy hunt
after they intercepted his reports.

133
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How can they intercept his reports
when they're coming from Portugal?

134
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Because he's probably radioing them
or Morse coding them across

135
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and they'll be cracking that, won't they?

136
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Yeah, through the Ultra programme, yes,
you're absolutely right.

137
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So they did eventually move him to Britain
and they gave him a code name.

138
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Was it a bit of a shock for him
to actually move to Britain?

139
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He was given a code name
for a very British drink.

140
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Crème de menthe.

141
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"Tea."

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Bovril.

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Oh!

144
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And he's no idea, they're going around,
"What's your code name?"

145
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-"Agent Bovril."
-"Midnight."

146
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What's yours? "Bovril."

147
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But they did change his code name later to…

148
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-Marmite.
-Marmite.

149
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Code name Garbo.

150
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Nice. So from Bovril to Garbo.

262
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Yes.

152
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An autobiography there for everybody.

153
00:07:12.280 --> 00:07:13.360
So what was he actually sending?

154
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We've got a mixture of three things here,
complete fiction,

155
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what's the other two categories?

156
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-Newspaper clippings.
-Football scores.

157
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Genuine information of little military value,
but you know what, football scores is fine,

158
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I'll give you a point.

159
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Was he sending stuff that …
well, okay, for want of a better phrase,

160
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was he leaving them breadcrumbs of things
he thought might be happening soon,

161
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so they would keep drip-feeding very small
amounts in to keep them on the hook?

162
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Ooh! You're close,
but there is one thing they did.

163
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He … the first bit of this
is 'valuable military intelligence'.

164
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He did actually send proper intelligence to
the Germans, there's just one catch with it.

165
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It was harmless,
so it was out of date or late?

166
00:07:46.200 --> 00:07:48.040
Yes, artificially delayed.

167
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Ah!

168
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So he sent perfectly accurate data,
it was postmarked in time.

169
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Ah! And they're going to say,

170
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"If we had only read this quicker,
this would have…

171
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"We'd intercept this because we read this
about three days later than we could have.

172
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"And if only we had more staff reading this
stuff, we would have got there quicker."

173
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So they employed more staff, yeah?

174
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I quote, 'We are sorry they arrived too late,
but your last reports were magnificent.'

175
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The Germans wanted quicker reports
and better encryption.

176
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They didn't get that.

177
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Well, they did, what did they send him?

178
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-An Enigma machine.
-Yes.

179
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No! No!

180
00:08:21.560 --> 00:08:24.120
You knobheads!

181
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It's not an Enigma machine but it's the
strongest code book that the Germans had,

182
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-was promptly sent to him.
-F***ing hell!

183
00:08:32.400 --> 00:08:34.720
He must have thought it was bleeding Christmas
when that happened.

184
00:08:34.720 --> 00:08:37.040
Straight down Bletchley on his bike,
"Got one!"

185
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What was Operation Fortitude in 1944?

186
00:08:41.720 --> 00:08:43.120
A good hearty breakfast.

187
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Did it come after Operation 39itude?

338
00:06:50.080 --> 00:06:52.640
Oh!

189
00:08:53.000 --> 00:08:54.120
No.

190
00:08:54.120 --> 00:08:57.460
But it came immediately before
another famous operation.

191
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-41itude!
-41itude!

192
00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:03.040
I set that one up, didn't I?

193
00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:06.920
-Overlord.
-Yes, which was?

194
00:09:06.920 --> 00:09:08.080
-D-Day.
-Yes.

195
00:09:08.080 --> 00:09:11.040
So immediately before Operation Overlord
was the D-Day landings.

196
00:09:11.040 --> 00:09:13.480
Operation Fortitude was designed to do what?

197
00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:15.480
This isn't the thing with the inflatable tanks,
is it?

198
00:09:15.480 --> 00:09:17.240
Yes, it is, and in fact...

199
00:09:17.240 --> 00:09:19.640
Mystery Biscuits.

200
00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:24.320
They'd made some tank shaped balloons...

201
00:09:25.120 --> 00:09:26.680
balloon shaped tanks.

202
00:09:27.160 --> 00:09:29.480
-Tank shaped balloons, right the first time.
-I've heard of this before.

203
00:09:29.480 --> 00:09:31.760
Yeah, and they positioned them strategically

204
00:09:31.760 --> 00:09:34.560
in exactly the place the Germans thought
they would be positioned.

205
00:09:34.560 --> 00:09:38.920
And for some reason,
I've never quite worked out, that was enough.

206
00:09:38.920 --> 00:09:41.240
Despite the fact I'm almost certain one of them

207
00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:44.120
will probably have got ended up filled with
helium, it might have floated upwards.

208
00:09:44.120 --> 00:09:47.880
I like the idea that they're not pumped up
enough and they just got really limp guns.

209
00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:52.520
So they accept he's going to send some
genuine information.

210
00:09:52.520 --> 00:09:53.880
And he's got the German …

211
00:09:53.880 --> 00:09:56.440
he's got the German radio operators
listening in all night.

212
00:09:57.120 --> 00:09:59.240
And he sends them, at 3am, some reasonable,

213
00:09:59.240 --> 00:10:02.760
maybe slightly too late details of a bit of
what's going on.

214
00:10:02.760 --> 00:10:04.000
"There's an invasion happening, you know!"

215
00:10:04.000 --> 00:01:50.560
-What happened?
-The Germans were asleep.

216
00:01:50.560 --> 00:10:07.280
-Yes.
-Oh!

217
00:10:07.280 --> 00:10:10.560
Well, we don't know if they were asleep,
they just didn't send a reply until 8am.

218
00:10:10.560 --> 00:10:12.840
"Sorry, was asleep, had phone on silent",
that kind of thing.

219
00:10:12.840 --> 00:10:15.960
Yes, so what does he do
because it's now definitely too late?

220
00:10:15.960 --> 00:10:18.480
Sends an incensed message
that they aren't listening to him.

221
00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:22.120
Yes. "I cannot accept
excuses or negligence."

222
00:10:23.200 --> 00:10:24.800
He's bollocking them, I love it.

223
00:10:24.800 --> 00:10:29.720
And then sends pretty much
the accurate details of the invasion,

224
00:10:30.200 --> 00:10:32.320
which is happening right now,

225
00:10:32.320 --> 00:06:50.080
and they can't do anything about
because they were too late.

338
00:06:50.080 --> 00:06:52.640
Oh!

227
00:10:37.600 --> 00:10:40.200
That, oh, that gives him a free pass.

228
00:10:40.200 --> 00:10:41.240
Yes, it does.

229
00:10:41.240 --> 00:10:43.960
Because he's like, "I would have told you
had you been awake at 3:00am."

230
00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:46.920
The Germans paid Garbo how much,

231
00:10:46.920 --> 00:10:50.520
over the network of agents,
over 27 fabricated people,

232
00:10:50.520 --> 00:10:56.000
over years, I've got a number here in US dollars,
the Germans sent straight to MI5?

233
00:10:56.000 --> 00:10:57.680
Am I allowed to guess in Reichsmarks?

234
00:10:57.680 --> 00:11:01.520
No. But we're going to do
Price is Right rules here, as usual,

235
00:11:01.520 --> 00:11:03.160
-closest without going over.
-US dollars?

236
00:11:03.160 --> 00:11:04.680
US dollars, 1944.

237
00:11:04.680 --> 00:11:06.040
One million.

238
00:11:06.040 --> 00:11:09.160
I'm going to say it's about $10.92
because they never actually paid him,

239
00:11:09.160 --> 00:11:11.080
because he was in the wrong place
at the wrong time.

240
00:11:11.080 --> 00:11:14.640
Clever, I was going to go for about 600,000.

241
00:11:14.640 --> 00:11:20.000
Matt is closest without going over ,
340,000 US dollars.

275
00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:21.040
Ooh!

243
00:11:21.040 --> 00:11:23.280
Went straight from the German Treasury
to the British one.

244
00:11:23.280 --> 00:11:25.040
They might as well have just like
sent a plane over

245
00:11:25.040 --> 00:11:27.120
and just bombed us with banknotes,
mightn't they.

246
00:11:28.280 --> 00:11:30.680
He was presented with some awards for this.

247
00:11:30.680 --> 00:11:33.640
Best spy and also controversially, worst spy.

248
00:11:35.160 --> 00:11:36.680
A German military award.

249
00:11:36.680 --> 00:11:38.640
-You said the Iron Cross.
-I was hoping you'd forgotten that.

250
00:11:38.640 --> 00:11:40.080
That must have been awkward turning up
for your…

251
00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:41.760
because you said a George Cross
or something, didn't you?

252
00:11:41.760 --> 00:04:23.520
-MBE, he's still wearing the MBE.
-With the Iron Cross.

262
00:04:23.520 --> 00:04:27.040
Yes.

254
00:11:45.000 --> 00:11:48.360
A suspiciously Iron Cross shaped mark
on where his breast pocket was.

255
00:11:48.360 --> 00:11:51.040
S***, did he turn up in Germany
to receive awards?

256
00:11:51.040 --> 00:11:53.080
No, it was awarded by radio,

257
00:11:53.680 --> 00:11:56.920
and then he received the physical medal
from one of his German handlers

258
00:11:56.920 --> 00:11:58.320
after the war had ended.

259
00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:00.160
But if he didn't like the institution

260
00:12:00.160 --> 00:12:02.840
and he had all of these awards from two
different institutions,

261
00:12:02.840 --> 00:04:23.520
surely he f***ing hated that.

262
00:04:23.520 --> 00:04:27.040
Yes.

263
00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:08.360
But why did he have to accept it anyway?

264
00:12:08.360 --> 00:12:11.400
Because otherwise it would blow his cover
and he'd get killed by some mysterious agents,

265
00:12:11.400 --> 00:12:13.240
they probably thought still existed
at the time.

266
00:12:13.240 --> 00:12:16.040
Yes. He feared reprisals after the war.

267
00:12:16.040 --> 00:12:18.960
Because we all assume, like,
neatly the war ended in '45.

268
00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:21.800
They weren't very sure the war was
actually over for quite a long time.

269
00:12:21.800 --> 00:12:25.320
Because he kind of thought,
"They'll be back", like they are in films.

270
00:12:25.320 --> 00:12:27.440
Like there's a secret cache of Nazis that...

271
00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:28.440
After the credits.

272
00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:29.480
Yeah.

273
00:12:29.480 --> 00:12:33.320
A single Nazi helmet pops up
out of the ground, ♪ Dun dun dun dun ♪

274
00:12:33.320 --> 00:11:20.000
Well, you know,
70 years later they're back. Anyway…

275
00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:21.040
Ooh!

276
00:12:39.560 --> 00:12:40.440
So what did he do?

277
00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:42.480
Moved to America and lived a quiet life.

278
00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:46.040
You know what, I'll give you that, he …
he went to Angola.

279
00:12:46.040 --> 00:12:47.240
That's not America!

280
00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:50.400
And then went to Venezuela.

281
00:12:50.400 --> 00:12:52.160
Like the Nazis did.

282
00:12:52.160 --> 00:12:55.720
-So if you say America, Venezuela is sort of -
-It's South America.

283
00:12:55.720 --> 00:12:57.920
-I'll give you the point.
-It's an America.

284
00:12:57.920 --> 00:12:59.960
-He also did something else.
-Faked his own death.

285
00:12:59.960 --> 00:13:04.120
Yes, he did, he faked his own death
from malaria in 1949.

286
00:13:04.120 --> 00:13:05.280
And then...

287
00:13:06.040 --> 00:13:09.520
changed his identity,
moved to Venezuela and lived doing what?

288
00:13:09.520 --> 00:13:10.560
Hard drugs.

289
00:13:10.560 --> 00:13:12.160
Printing expense forms.

290
00:13:12.160 --> 00:13:13.600
Money laundering.

291
00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:16.440
A bookshop. A bookshop and gift shop.

292
00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:18.280
"The books are full of spies."

293
00:13:19.160 --> 00:13:25.000
In 1971, British politician, Rupert Allason is
trying to track down Garbo.

294
00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:26.160
Is this for his MBE?

295
00:13:26.160 --> 00:13:28.280
-No, he's got the MBE.
-He's already got that?

296
00:13:28.280 --> 00:13:30.680
But no one knows his real name.

297
00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:32.960
Does everyone just know him as Bovril or Garbo?

298
00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:34.040
Yes, essentially.

299
00:13:34.040 --> 00:13:36.000
I like the name as a full name, Bovrila Garbo.

300
00:13:37.160 --> 00:13:41.200
Eventually Allason tracks down someone who
supplied his full name

301
00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:43.280
and knew roughly where he was.

302
00:13:43.280 --> 00:13:45.480
So what does Allason then do?

303
00:13:45.480 --> 00:13:50.440
Has he gone through every Juan Garcia in
Venezuela but there are loads of them?

304
00:13:50.440 --> 00:13:52.280
You know, that's close enough,
I'll give you the point.

305
00:13:52.280 --> 00:13:55.800
He went through every J Garcia in the Barcelona
phone book

306
00:13:57.520 --> 00:13:59.760
and eventually got in touch with his nephew.

307
00:14:00.360 --> 00:14:02.080
-In Barcelona?
-In Barcelona.

308
00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:03.120
That's not Venezuela.

309
00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:05.120
No, because no one knew where he'd gone.

310
00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:09.600
Oh, of course, yeah, we know that, so yeah,
"Hello was your… was anyone you know a spy?"

311
00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:11.360
Yes, that's basically what happened.

312
00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:14.200
And this person said yes and they believed him.

313
00:14:15.040 --> 00:14:17.360
That's exactly the thing a spy wouldn't do.

314
00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:20.800
And you make an excellent point there.

315
00:14:20.800 --> 00:14:25.200
I was going to say that Pujol travelled to
London and it says here,

316
00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:27.600
"was received by Prince Philip
at Buckingham Palace".

317
00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:29.800
But now you've said that, who knows who it was?

318
00:14:29.800 --> 00:14:31.480
Because Prince Philip never met him.

319
00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:34.440
Well, you say that, he then went to the
Special Forces Club and was reunited

320
00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:35.800
with a group of
his former colleagues.

321
00:14:35.800 --> 00:14:39.160
He told them he'd had plastic surgery while he
was in Venezuela.

322
00:14:39.160 --> 00:14:41.720
And so looked and sounded different
because was…

323
00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:43.360
"Oh, Bovril, up to your old tricks."

324
00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:44.360
"Yeah, Bovril."

325
00:14:44.360 --> 00:14:47.520
You do know that plastic surgery doesn't work
like it does in the Bond movies, right?

326
00:14:47.520 --> 00:14:48.960
Shut up.

327
00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:52.920
Yes, they called every single J Garcia in the
Barcelona phone book.

328
00:14:52.920 --> 00:14:58.320
They found his nephew, his nephew put the
politician in touch with the original spy.

329
00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:03.080
And he came over and met Prince Philip,
toured the beaches of Normandy.

330
00:15:03.080 --> 00:15:07.480
And eventually died in Caracas in 1988 and is
essentially

331
00:15:07.800 --> 00:15:10.720
the greatest spy that Britain
nearly didn't have.

332
00:15:12.920 --> 00:15:15.440
And when he came over he brought a big stack
of expense forms

333
00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:17.080
for all his staff back in the office.

334
00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:20.760
So at the end of the show, congratulations,
Chris you win this one.

335
00:15:25.320 --> 00:15:28.480
You win a trip to an
'all you can eat' garlic restaurant.

336
00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:30.240
Aioli you can eat?

337
00:15:30.920 --> 00:06:50.080
Buffet the Vampire Slayer.

338
00:06:50.080 --> 00:06:52.640
Oh!

339
00:15:36.120 --> 00:15:38.360
With that, we thank you to
Chris Joel,

340
00:15:38.760 --> 00:15:40.320
to Gary Brannan,

341
00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:41.720
to Matt Gray.

342
00:15:41.720 --> 00:15:43.520
I've been Tom Scott,
we'll see you next time.